Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

[I Am Blessed]

I have thrown this subject out before, and am really curious to perhaps getting some imput from those who are on TUMS for Phosphorus binding.

Whenever any speaks of bubbles in the urine, it's always in relation to too much protein buildup in the blood.

If I were to make a bottle of bubbles to play with, I certainly wouldn't use protein to do it. I would make it with an alkaline base something like detergent or soap. Once, my husband and I lived in a state that banned TIDE detergent due to it having too much phosphorus--and phosphorus is what causes the soap to bubble--which is bad for the ground water. But, we knew several people who would go over the state line and buy TIDE anyway and bring it back into our state.

Now, I know none of us "bubblers" consumes detergent, but can it be possible that if we have too much phosphorus in our bodies from the foods we consume, can this cause us to have bubbles in the urine?

------------------

Okay, can we do an experiment??

So, I'm curious to know if those who are on phosphorus binders, such as TUMS, have bubbles in their urine. If you do take the binders, can you report your "finds," with the rest of us.

(Even though I've never been told by my doctor to take TUMS for phosphorus, I still might have to take it to help in this experiment!)

[Marina]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

I've didn't take tums as a binder (I used it occasionally for heartburn, but that' s another show ) I was still "bubbly" LOL
Some days more than others

[LanaB]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

Yes, bubbly urine! Me too. I take tums for phosphorus, only take 1 to 3 per day, been taking them now for 3 years. Not bubbly all the time though.. just sometimes. Used to be much worse when I took them when I was pregnant in 2008. Back then I was not on any kidney diet at all but ate lots of tums reccommended to me for heartburn in pregnancy. I used to think it was some kind of hormonal affect - not to do with tums or protein at all - .. But I think you must be right. LOL!

Lana

[Feelinlost]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

Yup I take Tums as a phosphate binder & yup have bubbles heaviest in the morning.

[I Am Blessed]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

Okay, here I am again with the most unprofessional research known to mankind, but I am determined to figure out what makes bubbles in the urine. To professionals this is probably nonsense what I am doing, and that I can understand, too. I have just got to know.

In my initial internet research, I found that it does take protein to make bubbles. There are lots of different kinds of proteins and they all have names and jobs. One really has to be scientific minded to understand ions and such, and I'm not that person, BUT I also found out that what makes detergent to bubble or soap to bubble is something called surfactants. There are many kinds of surfactants and listed below are surfactants which cause detergents to foam.

FOAM, BUBBLES!! This is what we see in our urine.

Just look over this list. See anything that we are to avoid in our foods? Nitrates is one thing my Neph told me to limit, such as what is in processed meats, etc. Sodium, potassium...



Anionic Surfactants
Anionic refers to the negative charge these surfactants have. They may be contaminated with nitrosamines, which are carcinogenic. Surfactants can pose serious health threats. They are used in car washes, as garage floor cleaners and engine degreasers - and in 90% of personal-care products that foam. They are also known as:
Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS)
Sodium Laureth Sulfate (SLES)
Ammonium Lauryl Sulfate (ALS)
Ammonium Laureth Sulfate (ALES)
Sodium Methyl Cocoyl Taurate
Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate
Sodium Cocoyl Sarcosinate
Potassium Coco Hydrolysed Collagen
TEA (Triethanolamine) Lauryl Sulfate
TEA (Triethanolamine) Laureth Sulfate
Lauryl or Cocoyl Sarcosine
Disodium Oleamide Sulfosuccinate
Disodium Laureth Sulfosuccinate
Disodium Dioctyl Sulfosuccinate etc

[Tonia]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

First, I love Tide, (when it's on sale!) but the liquid type. A plumber told me that the powder type is hard on the pipes and could cause corosion.

My better half uses Tums daily for indigestion-- no kidney disease, no bubbles.
I never use Tums, but I do take Protonix for stomach relief--yep, a few bubbles most of the time, especially in the morning. I always assumed it was because the urine is more concentrated in the morning plus I normally eat more protein with my dinner meal.

I Am Blessed, Interesting study!!

[M3Riddler]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

I have thrown this subject out before, and am really curious to perhaps getting some imput from those who are on TUMS for Phosphorus binding.

Whenever any speaks of bubbles in the urine, it's always in relation to too much protein buildup in the blood.

If I were to make a bottle of bubbles to play with, I certainly wouldn't use protein to do it. I would make it with an alkaline base something like detergent or soap. Once, my husband and I lived in a state that banned TIDE detergent due to it having too much phosphorus--and phosphorus is what causes the soap to bubble--which is bad for the ground water. But, we knew several people who would go over the state line and buy TIDE anyway and bring it back into our state.

Now, I know none of us "bubblers" consumes detergent, but can it be possible that if we have too much phosphorus in our bodies from the foods we consume, can this cause us to have bubbles in the urine?

------------------

Okay, can we do an experiment??

So, I'm curious to know if those who are on phosphorus binders, such as TUMS, have bubbles in their urine. If you do take the binders, can you report your "finds," with the rest of us.

(Even though I've never been told by my doctor to take TUMS for phosphorus, I still might have to take it to help in this experiment!)

May have nothing at all to do with binders....When you have kidney fialure, your blood can become acidic due to buildup of toxins. If the kidneys are not working properly, the kidneys cannot filter them properly and may result in the following:

Metabolic acidosis may result from increased production of metabolic acids or disturbances in the ability to excrete acid via the kidneys. Renal acidosis is associated with an accumulation of urea and creatinine as well as metabolic acid residues of protein catabolism.
Read all about it here: Acidosis

[angieskidney]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

I just want to say that I have ALWAYS had a problem with my phosphorus being high yet I did not have bubbly urine. I only had it when before I started dialysis and I had protein in my urine. Just thought this was a good indicator that the doctors are right but I wonder why this is since what you said in your first post does make sense. Now I wonder

[jw154]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

My boyfriend uses TUMS daily as a binder due to the cost of Renagel/Renvela. He still has foamy urine. We were told he is to take 2 extra strength at each meal. Of course he also has low calcium so it helps both problems.

[boncaks]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

I don't take tums but have always had bubbles in my urine. My nephro diagnosed as renal acidicious and he prescribed sodium bicarbonate, so that I dont produce to much acid in my blood from the kidneys not removing the toxins. Even with taking the sodium bicarb tablets I still produce bubbles in my urine.

Oh well just call me bubbly bonnie

Bonnie

[IHaveFaith]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

I always have bubbles and lots of them. Larger and heavier amount of bubbles based on how long it has been since I last emptied my bladder; wouldn't know if I would have even more in the am as I also am plagued by extreme nocturia, boy would love to know what if feels like to sleep more than two hours in a single stretch!

A couple of things that I have also determined over the years of having kidney disease (always having 24 hour creatinine clearance tests) is that the more bubbles and the more the urine has that distinctive protein odor and clings to your catchment container, the higher the protein amount there will be in your test results; not failing to mention that I always spill tons of protein anyway but I know the number will be higher if my urine exhibits what I just mentioned above.

Another thing worth mentioning here, is that I always keep a running list of fluid I intake and record my output during the 24 hour test, take into account that about 20% of your fluid usually also comes from foods and then that way I can get a good ballpark idea of how much fluid I am losing; this will also let you know if you are consuming enough liquids to avoid dehydration as I lose almost as much as I take in because of the type of kidney damage I have.

Just had an image pop into my head about discussing this with the average person and a mental image of how their face would be looking about now!

[I Am Blessed]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

LOL, IHaveFaith, yes, the image of bubbles in pee is quite interesting to the unsuspecting average bear! But those of us with kidney disease knows from whence we speak!

I think that stress plays a part in bubbles. Dang it if I had the bubbles to disappear for 7 weeks straight only to have them return when school just got back in session. Humm, interesting isn't it? Now tell me how that comes to be?

I've mentioned this before in a previous post/thread, but my bubbles occur only around 10 in the morning--and not every morning. I get up frequently in the night, too, to "go" if I drink too much in the evenings and if I don't put my feet up prior to going to bed. Trips to the loo are less if I can be stricter with my fluids at night. My nephrologist didn't seem to care that I had to get up so much because he says most of his patients cannot pee at all!

I'm thinking that with boncakes mentioning renal acidosis, that this is the real problem. When our bodies are more acid because of our diet, then we are filled with inflammation. Our bubbles resemble mucus, right? Mucus is inflammation.

[angieskidney]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

I take Tums because I have trouble swallowing some pills if they are too big or not in capsule form.

[linleed]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

Hello everyone....I've had CKD for years, but was diagnosed with CKD, stg. 4 about six years ago. I'm now at the borderline for dialysis, which could happen within the next few weeks. My doc is just now getting serious with my diet, and I'm sad to say, so am I. However, it is so very confusing and extremely depressing. I'm hoping there is someone out there that can answer some "general" questions about dieting. (I am waiting for a dietitian to contact me, but so far doing it on my own) I'm on a 2 g sod, 2 g pot., 3 phos, and 50 g protein. With this in mind, do I have to absolutely stay away from Potatoes, tomatoes, peanut butter, chocolate, pancakes, eggs, milk, cheese, cereal, cookies, strawberries, boston lettuce, etc.....????? Also, what about vitamins? like E, C, and fish oil?

Am also curious to see if any of you experience pain of any kind, and if so what? Thanks! You've mentioned Tums for bubbles....my doc put me on prescription pepside ... could this be for phos?

[I Am Blessed]

Re: Phosphorus, tums, and bubbles, oh my!

http://www.kidney.ca/Document.Doc?id=801

Found this which might help those who are trying to reduce phosphorus. I like this list because it gives you substitutes for what you can't eat.